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tv   Conflict Zone  Deutsche Welle  May 16, 2019 2:30pm-3:01pm CEST

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richard greater democracy operating. it's really frightening. all. why are people more concerned. for the 1st on. the trial of cattle and separatist leaders over their failed independence has laid bare some stock divisions in spanish society not least over the justice system my guest this week here in madrid is spain's foreign minister use that barrel how does he answer the charge that the trials are fundamentally unfair. because a bar of welcome to conflict. last year
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a lady called come a follow up was the president of the catalan parliament she was arrested charged with rebellion when she was interviewed last december she was spending 15 hours a day in her cell in solitary confinement is this really the image of spain that you want to show the rest of the world. judiciary decision. to. get people under control or another to avoid them to escape from their justice like others a grandmother in her mid sixty's in a prison convicted of nothing by this enjoy joys the presumption of innocence before her. everybody who is in presenting preventive jail enjoys the presumption of innocence intruder 30 percent of the people who are in jail preventive detention
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it's hard not to see her incarceration as the action of a vindictive state setting out to punish defendants they should. be enjoying this presumption of innocence and how to present. there's nothing to work with your on record as saying that you wish some of those in pretrial detention were free. times exactly that they would have forever the judge could have found another way of preventing them from escaping the action of justice you said there were other methods that could have been used you said there were other methods that could help the beauty of so this was unfair treatment. in your view and all you'd have preferred to see them out of pretrial and we all know another thing the main me say thing that they haven't said. honesty international calling to the use
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of pretrial detention is justified only when there is no alternative measure which would insure the interests of justice you have said there are alternative measures so it is unfair well look you've the judge has decided to these measures because he thinks it has to move so i am not going to. this side in the plate of judges in spain judges in that they take their decision by their own i understand that already and if maybe mr put him on had an escape maybe they should have taken other kind of measures do you know that with him on and on the us has been escaping graduate of justice but you know that there are very few people who don't know that or listen to them them explain that but it's not your role you tell me the courts are independent but it's not your role to turn a blind eye to serious questions and doubts about the way your judicial system is
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functioning isn't it because you came to power your government came to power promising to transform. space my point to you is keeping people in. lockdown in solitary confinement for 15 hours a day. solitary confinement 15 hours a day 63 year old grandmother convicted of nothing. excuse me. of nothing do you know about the conviction. i start thinking that you don't anything about it she hasn't been convicted of anything as she she's been charged but she has no charge convicted well let's. stop it we're going to stop this interview and this. if you continue like these are you stop it. you are nothing but a gating me you're interviewing me. again so you. know
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i'm not a subject of any kind of inquiry from your side i understand that the right questions and let me talk if not you stop it absolutely ok i just don't. look. you came to power to modernize. last year the e.u. score card which measured public trust in the independence of national courts and judges put spain in 23rd place on the list of member countries below portugal hungary and romania how do you feel about that spending ranking among the 20 best democracies and. according with. your need of. the economist.
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i think this being classified. as a being. but the truth is when it comes to the charges of rebellion against the catalan defendants there has been a substantial outcry both here and abroad present that last november more than $100.00 legal experts in spain signed an open letter condemning the charge of rebellion in the council didn't move you whether you led the judges made their work i'm asking your opinion. in spain. how do you think that the decision of the german court which refused to extradite the former catalan leader. on the charge of rebellion how how do you think that has affected the credibility of the case against him because the german court said the
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amount of violence required for the charge of high treason which is the closest they have to rebellion was not seen. in breach of the public peace does not apply because the mark was only involved in carrying out the independence. of the german judge. and it's a blow to your case. which at the time. of the joining the course was the court was basically saying that your central charge against the catalan defendants doesn't hold up. i don't know how. the situation in spain who has to judge those paintings court. suggestions here in spain that they're not going to get a fair trial the professor of constitutional law civilian. royo said i would like to be wrong but the way in which the october 1st case has
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proceeded so far inevitably points to a guilty verdict the trial will be a farce even though they will abide by all the legal procedures while it's been hell but the verdict has already been written it's a chilling accusations head over to him. just that. does that can you learn agree with the association of judges for democracy about the appointment of some of the leading figures in this case is very much a values we hold of low for the people who criticizes the judges i can barely hear other people who has. there may well be other views but i mean there's been a damaging criticism has with moved into a 3rd time i am answering you this same answer in spain judiciary is in power let them do their work carlos bustamante
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accused you of contributing to the increase in hate he said when you were appointed foreign minister is this the gesture they had in mind in order to send us a message of fraternal deescalation the fact that you have been you a catalan have been dead set against catalonia independence was he right was this a message of fraternal deescalation. can you tell me why mr bush is saying these kind of things i can't i go read is not i'm asking with the asking whether you agree with it for sure not why should i try to defend myself from that because they should when mr put them on if you are unable to say it is there. if you have they have those like this thing of the year while you are talking about do you want to deescalate the situation have been this guy he thinks the situation these government has been making to be careful to know the discovery of this situation
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implementing and the old kind of measures in order to make things go into normal again but we cannot give to the end there but the people did wait to put it in the nation as they are asking for because it is against this business krusty to show that this has nothing to do with international law why not have a debate about the constitution and constitutional rights. that could have touched on those provisions which outlaw independence for spanish regions could have done it really put a cap on for the spanish barlow members and a proposal to reform because to do should by the basket be it they haven't done it why didn't you do it do you are you not interested in reforming the constitution who is asking for it 70 percent those manuals one longs little crucial reform according according to the center for sociological research so much you're so.
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you know with the lying. the center for sociological research has said word 70 percent of spaniards want constitutional reform of some college are some while you can have some god. it's public record why finish what donald finish i don't want to do that anymore. minister in november the human rights commissioner of the council of europe wrote to the senate and the congress of deputies pressing for serious amendments to the so-called law on citizens' safety i know that your government promised meaningful changes to this law but you haven't delivered them of the i've been visiting this the consul. he was not complaining at all and he said that this pain in the
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judiciary of us consider it an indefinite then one performing a calling with human approachable. so there was no christmas or you didn't read the letter was sent there you had an interview with that they went to them and. i don't think there is criticism about the functioning of the spanish or the sure but you didn't you didn't change the law did you you promised meaningful changes to you haven't i don't know exactly what you were talking about the general terms of consideration the. concert will make of the spain the system are very good what the commissioner wrote was in his letter i find it disturbing that according to the minister of interior 27000 alone more than 21000 sanctions have been imposed on the grounds of lack of respect or consideration for police officers and the articles
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that can easily be interpreted he said in an arbitrary manner and thus have a chilling effect on freedom of expression well you have a bias approach to this you're too late to spain what they can tell you is the just human brain. has had much unless cases with respect to spain to many other countries. the court of superior court of human rights decided that a number of basque separatists didn't get a fair trial. you can found that doesn't help the argument does it no doesn't help my argument from your point of view but i can't repeat once and again that the statistics show that there spain has much less much less cases in front of the court of human rights than many other european
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countries like france belgium germany and others but you don't answer for them you answer for are you not concerned about this public safety or you wanted to change it. do you find it satisfactory that so many people were sanctioned for disrespecting the police i am not aware of what do i say about you can't refer to this to distinction in general terms and the position that the spain has. right let's talk about arms sales in september last year you announced you had halted the sale of laser guided bombs to saudi arabia with concerns over the use of such weapons in the war in your mind and just days later you changed your mind and said the contract had to be on that. this contract more contract was horrific but seems that it hasn't been anymore sell arms. to saudi arabia but you continue to sell arms not since this government this you know thieves they have been selling more
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arms you said you had changed your mind and said this particular contract had to be on this particular conference had to be had already was signed with the previous government and. they spend the socialist government believe that these are the yes and we heard that they are but these bombs munitions of this crime have been used against hospitals hotels the water whirls residential buildings factories and last year and the school bus attack so the question of collateral damage when they've been in that civilian targets doesn't really apply does what they say everybody who has a minimum intelligence you can understand is that the precision we've created less can at all damages that the bomb would just randomly tip it if it's aimed at civilian targets anyway that's just an academic argument either why do you have to
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prove that they have being used for that well that if you read words human rights watch has said last year as of november last year 6872 civilians had been killed and more than 10000 wounded by saudi arabia led coalition air strikes since 2015. they have documented about 90 apparently coalition air strikes which have hit homes markets hospitals schools and mosques and these are the people you decided to honor the contract with but it is not at all approve about us saying that there was caused by this god of arms. well they were bomb coalition coalition airstrikes but their bombs and bombs were trained to blame you're the only thing you have said and this is something that you have only to will be honest approach to the problem and you will and the stand that a precision bomb creates less had to hold them that they're running them up as
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a former president of the european parliament i'm sure you've noted the criticism such arms of attracted in that forum last november i mean please heavily criticize the way member states have greenlighted most films exports to saudi arabia despite the fact that those exports violated 6 out of 8 criteria and undermine the entire european arms control but the spores vollmer that the spains has been doing does in full feel completely whole legal requirements amnesty international so do your own forms export more prohibits arms transfers when there is reasonable suspicion they could be used in human rights violations and we have a committee that control of this port of arms and to make sure that when we support arms and we don't buy your made any old. and you are confident despite
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criticism from human rights groups despite what the e.u. parliament has been saying about the need to stop these arms exports to saudi arabia that you haven't violated the criteria he told you for at least 2 or 3 times but you continue asking the same question that it seems this government is in office we haven't seen the supported arms so no more no more laser guided bombs to saudi arabia these was a contract that had to be heard or it was signed by the previous government and since then he has been another one related to the town i am as the same as the minister and the time we have left i'd like to look at developments concerning gibraltar your government has made it clear that you intend to use the brics it process to open the question of shared sovereignty over gibraltar despite the fact
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that both britain and gibraltar have signalled that that issue is not open for debate why do you bother. to open the question of shared sovereignty who says that your prime minister did in november he said that the issue should sovereignty will be back on the table on the prime minister sunsets for sure it's on the table all the time you or you but it's not for them not for gibraltar not for britain for sure and what. so what so what why do you think this time you can put it back on the to do you think it's you can use the leverage the leverage of bricks at negotiations to put pressure on. how badly you form you why really you don't know anything of what you are talking about my god what do you want done don't know do you do not do the only hope anything i won't be what you are talking of i had been saying very clearly that we were not going to use the
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dogs of the black sea port of the table the question really in theory are you a liar or are just not well informed and you didn't hear your prime minister say in november that the issue of sovereignty would be back on the table it will be back on the table but not do it integrated negotiations how ignorant you are incredible what about through the trade negotiations if there is to be a free trade agreement between britain and spray what then will the again put pressure on gibraltar either you say the scale things i am going to surprise happen to come from. this or bite this the deal what you are talking about of. you say that mr knowledgeable you say that and you say that the issue is on the table 1st of all you said the government had hadn't said anything about putting that on the table then you have the prime minister certainly did say that can i explain he was not alone please please have an answer to your continues
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question please can you give me the police. we have said very clearly that we have not going to take questions of rain on the table on the framework of breaks in negotiations and we haven't done it which doesn't mean that we forget about the question was over a 94 that will reach 5 agreement with the british government of what you brought up with all treaty and in the future we also agreed with good reason that any agreement with united in the little perspectives you ruled to have to be on the control of spain the government that's all nothing more than that for sure we requested most of rain but it hasn't been called on that they will do just the back to negotiation you should know about it and not both questions on the 4th wave. on this on february the 18th lyster one of your warships into the waters
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and tried to order out commercial vehicle that were tied up there what was the point of that action because this provision for the ships to stop they can pass but they can not stop now these were gibraltar waters british gibraltar waters which you don't recognize we do not recall nice job growth. because according to the review which treaty. we read the man got the waters we are acting accordingly with international more and with. the ships can pass by they can not stop. one of your most experienced diplomats who headed your mission and the law of the sea matters jose antonio de. has said publicly that there's no legal basis for claiming that gibraltar has nothing to retore award to us they said about
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their point of view of this painting of them and it's if you have a disagreement and you do have this disagreement over gibraltar waters why not settle it through the disputes procedure of the law on the sea conflicts when we have lots of talks as far back as 969 that very night that do put a question it will be much better led the interviewer to answer the. priest now also to continue cutting my answer and also please the true sense of the question i have to all your for this pain is going on. the ships can pass by but they cannot the stopping to water that we can see that they don't be long for this job rovers for one i'll settle that issue my dialogue in the way that one will settle national where that why not settle it. i understand how you miss it you know of answering my question in this book i am asked the question that many parents has of one piece my
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answer what are you afraid of a dialogue taking it to international arbitration to the international court of justice they could decide this international court of justice is not competent for this kind of question and the u.n. law of the sea they are competent but you won't take it to them either you want to put me in the bank of guilty people or i'm just asking why not you are very funny. you're really funny. you've just reached a tax agreement with britain over gibraltar. so dialogue can get some results can't . unload with gibraltar who was written i said with britain written about europe yes peter you have to wake up women got something wrong with it you were concerned about tax fraud in gibraltar is that right why not do more to prevent things like fraud and bribery and money laundering any way around can spain do more and we
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want you always can do more. transparency international says that key european countries are failing to enforce the o.e.c.d. these anti bribery convention which is one of the main instruments for fighting global corruption which is the question. and spain is one of them which isn't working and spain is one of them so currently showing according to transparency international little or no inforced why is that we do as much as we can. much you could do more sure you're told good or bad a good interview. minister good to have your own company. thank you thank you for your but next time. if you're called the questions and the last 5 years away. i'm not here just to give you the questions you want me so.
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thank.
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the bank . the be. this is big news coming to you live from berlin europe moves to disrupt this information campaign stop coming european elections there's been a massive push to get people out to vote efforts to stop the spread of foreign and propaganda need proved too little too late or too in the program war is no place for any child getting one in 5 live in conflict areas that's the warning from the age group save the children as it marks 100.

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